Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadik.vanderhoof@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Yes I can. Ordinary people, that are not involved in crime or linked to > terrorism will not be affected in any way. And the worse that will happen > to anyone is to be removed from the US (or placed in detention if they > resist being removed). While I don't believe a prolonged argument on this mailing list is likely to be productive, I do take offense with these two statements that in my opinion do not reflect reality and shouldn't be left to stand, if only to ensure the proper context for the large number of silent observers on the list. To your first claim that "Ordinary people, that are not involved in crime or linked to terrorism will not be affected in any way" is a variation of blaming the victim, a fallacy that others have already given a dramatic counter example of the French scientist, who was detained and denied entry based on messages on his phone that were critical of the Trump administration and its policies. Other examples that I mentioend much earlier in this thread include Fabian Schmidt (a greencard holder), Lucas Sielaff (held for two weeks), Jessica Brösche (held for over a month), or Rebecca Burke (held for two weeks), as well as others like Jasmine Mooney or Celine Flad, all of whom are "orginary people, that are not involved in crime or linked to terrorism". The second point you make is: "the worse [sic] that will happen to anyone is to be removed from the US (or placed in detention if they resist being removed)" First, if you are being denied entry and/or deported, then you will _always_ be detained -- that is not dependent on resisting any action. It is the act of holding the individual until they can be returned. Even if you "voluntarily withdraw your intent to enter the US", immigration and border control will detain you before you are put onto your flight back Being detained can be for a few hours, days, or weeks, and includes giving up possession of your belongings, being unable to communicate with your family, often involves deprivation of sleep, handcuffing and shackling, and generally involves being treated in an overtly hostile manner. Even in the best case scenario, it is a scary, highly stressful, humiliating experience. It can lead to you being held without the ability to communicate with others, with significant stress on your family who don't know where you are or when they might see you again. It may lead to you being denied entry into the US long-term or even permanently, and it will induce stress in future interactions with immigration officials for a long time. And those are the best case scenarios, and yes, those do apply to "ordinary people, that are not involved in crime or linked to terrorism". Arguing that that is not a big deal somehow betrays reality and and shows a notable lack of empathy. -Jan
