None of these concerns apply any more to the US than any other country.
On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:25 PM Jan Schaumann <jschauma=40netmeister.org@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadik.vanderhoof@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Yes I can. Ordinary people, that are not involved in crime or linked to
> terrorism will not be affected in any way. And the worse that will happen
> to anyone is to be removed from the US (or placed in detention if they
> resist being removed).
While I don't believe a prolonged argument on this
mailing list is likely to be productive, I do take
offense with these two statements that in my opinion
do not reflect reality and shouldn't be left to stand,
if only to ensure the proper context for the large
number of silent observers on the list.
To your first claim that "Ordinary people, that are
not involved in crime or linked to terrorism will not
be affected in any way" is a variation of blaming the
victim, a fallacy that others have already given a
dramatic counter example of the French scientist, who
was detained and denied entry based on messages on his
phone that were critical of the Trump administration
and its policies.
Other examples that I mentioend much earlier in this
thread include Fabian Schmidt (a greencard holder),
Lucas Sielaff (held for two weeks), Jessica Brösche
(held for over a month), or Rebecca Burke (held for
two weeks), as well as others like Jasmine Mooney or
Celine Flad, all of whom are "orginary people, that
are not involved in crime or linked to terrorism".
The second point you make is: "the worse [sic] that
will happen to anyone is to be removed from the US (or
placed in detention if they resist being removed)"
First, if you are being denied entry and/or deported,
then you will _always_ be detained -- that is not
dependent on resisting any action. It is the act of
holding the individual until they can be returned.
Even if you "voluntarily withdraw your intent to enter
the US", immigration and border control will detain
you before you are put onto your flight back
Being detained can be for a few hours, days, or weeks,
and includes giving up possession of your belongings,
being unable to communicate with your family, often
involves deprivation of sleep, handcuffing and
shackling, and generally involves being treated in an
overtly hostile manner.
Even in the best case scenario, it is a scary, highly
stressful, humiliating experience. It can lead to you
being held without the ability to communicate with
others, with significant stress on your family who
don't know where you are or when they might see you
again. It may lead to you being denied entry into the
US long-term or even permanently, and it will induce
stress in future interactions with immigration
officials for a long time.
And those are the best case scenarios, and yes, those
do apply to "ordinary people, that are not involved in
crime or linked to terrorism".
Arguing that that is not a big deal somehow betrays
reality and and shows a notable lack of empathy.
-Jan
