> Demanding people only interact with you through the forums limits the audience, feedback and input you'll get for your proposals.
The problem is that splitting the discussion in two media limits the audience you interact and exchange with, and thus also the feedback you can provide: a discussion for knowledge creation & transfer is always iterations of input and output for everyone, not just the proposal owner with many 1:1 conversations but everyone to benefit from everyone's thoughts and considerations. Imho, a major issue in Fedora is that we have atm two groups (potentially with a big gap in between), which some people in between, that very often do not consider each other and do not exchange with each other, just presuming what interests the other might have or simply not taking them into account at all.
There is a lot of space for innovation and improvement if the groups would more exchange & share opinions but also their reasoning and their "WHY", up to how to do something better. This might cause much more (social and technical) support for everyone. Instead, we sometimes even have hostilities (e.g., often about packaging issues) because one group finds out what the other did, or not did, without them knowing, or they simply do not understand the reasoning because no one took the time to explain in the media they use, and thus also not allow them to give potentially useful feedback or contribution.
Discourse has become the major point of discussion of Fedora, and although I am an opponent of forcing people from the mailing list to Discourse, I think it is reasonable and a good return on (time) investment for everybody to accumulate change proposal feedback at one place, so that everyone can also read through the thoughts and considerations of others, including all stakeholder groups. Hope that makes sense :)
Best, Chris
Hi Chris, On Fri, 2025-09-12 at 10:28 +0000, Christopher Klooz wrote:2. Disabling debug for non-root users is 100% NO-GO for me, as it will make Fedora unusable for development. It would also break abrt, which is used for bug reporting.Yes, that was buried in the wall of text. Disabling gdb for non-root users (even if it could be enabled) is definitely not good.2. & subsequent post: This (ptrace_scope & necessary documentation & origins of the current state) was a core element elaborated at different places, along with how to create the documentation and why. Also, keep in mind that it was considered to make this a security update separate from my proposal because the reason ptrace_scope became 0 was an accidentAs other have pointed out earlier this isn't an accident. This is precisely so that when user space observability tools (profilers, debuggers, tracers, etc.) are installed they work out of the box.These things are largely already tackled in the Discussion topic. Please respond and post there, so that the discussion remains consistent and avoid redundancy. Also, if you have ideas about how to optimize the Docs or so, do it in Discourse as well. I now focus my efforts there. I hope you understand :)Demanding people only interact with you through the forums limits the audience, feedback and input you'll get for your proposals. Cheers, Mark
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