Meeting Aug 12, 2025 at 08:59 CDT
Summary
Michael Catanzaro identified that Fedora Flatpaks cause confusion and
are seen as harmful due to user preference for Flathub. He proposed a
client-side filter to hide Fedora Flatpaks, or alternatively,
reordering priorities in GNOME Software so that Fedora Flatpaks appear
last, a solution favored by Jens-Ulrik Petersen. Tomáš Popela and
Michael Catanzaro agreed that any changes should include user
configurability in GNOME Software. Chris Murphy and Tomáš Popela
raised concerns about Flathub quality and the need for data to inform
decisions, while Tomáš Popela also highlighted Flathub's limited
architecture support.
Details
Fedora Flatpaks Issues
Michael Catanzaro identified that Fedora users generally dislike Fedora
Flatpaks due to confusion with Flathub versions and their precedence in
GNOME Software, leading to accidental installations. He noted that
Fedora Flatpaks are seen as actively harmful to Fedora, causing
problems that cannot be fixed by more developer effort, as users prefer
Flathub for its upstream nature. Michael Catanzaro also highlighted
that Flathub applications are less secure than those built by Fedora,
making him reluctant to promote Flathub wholesale, especially since
Flathub is unwilling to make necessary changes to improve security.
Proposed Solution: Client-Side Filter
Michael Catanzaro explained a change proposal for FESCo, suggesting a
client-side filter to hide most Fedora Flatpaks from GNOME Software and
the Flatpak command line, with exceptions for whitelisted core
applications like Firefox. He clarified that this filtering mechanism
is an existing Flatpak feature already used for Flathub. The proposal
is driven by the consensus among atomic desktop developers that Fedora
Flatpaks are "worse than nothing," and while Fedora generally avoids
shutting down projects, exposing it to users is not mandatory.
Alternative Solution: Priority Reordering
Michael Catanzaro presented an alternative to filtering Fedora
Flatpaks: reordering priorities in GNOME Software so that Fedora
Flatpaks appear last. He suggested that if the filtering proposal is
not accepted, removing the source entirely or lowering its priority
would prevent accidental installations. Jens-Ulrik Petersen favored
changing priorities over a whitelist, as he believes it offers a
superior user experience and is a reasonable first step.
Atomic Desktops and Future of Fedora
Michael Catanzaro emphasized that the Fedora atomic desktops do not
want Fedora Flatpaks, and this stance is important given Fedora's 2028
goal for atomic editions to become the default. He noted that RPMs will
largely disappear from default editions in three years, making Flathub
the only viable software source alongside Fedora Flatpaks. He suggested
that FESCo needs to understand the direction of Fedora editions and the
implications of this transition.
User Configurability in GNOME Software
Tomáš Popela and Michael Catanzaro agreed that if Fedora Flatpaks are
deprioritized, GNOME Software should include a feature allowing users
to revert the priority changes. Michael Catanzaro expressed full
support for this, making user configurability a prerequisite for any
changes. Jens-Ulrik Petersen also concurred that this would be the best
outcome.
Concerns about Flathub Quality and Data
Chris Murphy raised concerns about the quality deficiencies of Flathub
applications. He expressed a need for concrete data, rather than
relying on social media sentiment, to make decisions about Flatpak
strategies. Tomáš Popela supported the need for more data, noting
that the opinions heard are from a vocal minority, not necessarily
representative of all users. Michael Catanzaro acknowledged the
difficulty in obtaining representative data, suggesting that surveys
might still be biased towards social media users.
Architecture Support and Repackaging
Tomáš Popela highlighted a significant problem with Flathub's support
for secondary architectures like ARM64, stating that many applications
built from pre-packaged binary sources do not support it. Michael
Catanzaro confirmed that this is a concern he has, noting that Flathub
often uses pre-packaged binaries from sources like Debian instead of
building from source, which limits architecture support and affects
open source apps.
Strategic Approach to Flatpaks
Matthias Clasen suggested that while there might not be immediate
benefits, steering users towards Flathub is a strategic decision
because Fedora Flatpaks have little hope of future improvement, whereas
Flathub does. He acknowledged that there could be downsides in security
and quality, but emphasized the long-term vision. Michael Catanzaro
added that user preference for Flathub Flatpaks over Fedora Flatpaks is
an important consideration that is unlikely to change.
Public Relations and Future Discussions
Michael Catanzaro suggested that even without full consensus on a
technical solution, the group agrees that Fedora Flatpaks present a
public relations problem for Fedora. He plans to inform FESCo that the
working group agrees on the need for user configurability in GNOME
Software and that there is a reluctance to adopt the whitelist
approach. He also proposed discussing next week whether to switch RPMs
back to highest priority as they appear to be the least controversial
software source.
Meeting Logistics and Updates
Matthias Clasen announced he would be traveling next Tuesday and unable
to attend the meeting, with Michael Catanzaro agreeing to chair in his
absence and prepare an agenda. Matthias Clasen also provided an update
on GNOME 49 beta builds, mentioning decent progress and expected
readiness soon. He additionally mentioned a potential discussion for a
future meeting regarding the default background image and leveraging
new color management features in GNOME 49.
Suggested next steps
* Michael Catanzaro will handle next week's meeting and send an agenda.
--
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